Just for comparison, I’m looking at season stats for UCLA mens basketball. 17 players on the roster–and 8 are from California. Only 10 players have played more than 100 minutes (3-4 minutes per game) and only 7 have played more than 400 minutes (12-15 minutes per game.) Those top 7 are from Washington (via a transfer from Oregon State); Florida (via IMG Academy and transfer from Oklahoma State); Illinois (via Coronado HS in Nevada); Wisconsin (via transfer from USC); Los Angeles (via transfer from Louisville); Gardena, CA (via Compass Prep in Arizona); and Serbia (via transfer from University of Utah). Seven major contributing players, 2 of them from California, both of whom got UCLA via after leaving CA for a prep school, post grad, or college out of state. Tell me again how unfair it is that your kid starred on his high school and local club team can’t get a roster spot at one of the Big 4.
I’m really looking and I just can’t qwhite see what it is
Although I wonder if Lax or Field Hockey suffer the same issues? - From a parity standpoint, they are much better than water polo.
Years since a new champion:
- Fld Hky - 3
- M-LAX - 1
- W-LAX - 3
- M-WP - 26
- W-WP - 20
How many D1 programs for each of these are there?
field hockey? 79
MLAX? 73
WLAX? 133
MWP? 27
WWP? 36
Less teams = more likely to repeat
Although I hear what you are saying about too much talent on the top 4 teams.
We have been debating the merits of international athletes playing college water polo in the United States for many years and we’re no closer to reaching a consensus. Here are my thoughts on the subject and on some of the comments made in the latest iteration of this discussion.
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Water polo is, has been, and always will be a niche sport in the United States. There’s nothing wrong with that. Water polo is a niche sport in almost every country in which it’s played.
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Water polo was introduced to the United States in the late 1800s, long before it became an NCAA sport (in 1969 for the men and 2001 for the women). I hope that the future of American water polo doesn’t depend upon parents believing that having their kids play age-group water polo increases the likelihood they will be admitted to a “better” college than they would if they chose a different sport.
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Soccer is easily the most popular sport in the world. With about 2.5 million youth participants, soccer is also the second or third most popular youth sport in the United States, behind basketball and perhaps baseball/softball. This is true even though a higher percentage of international athletes play college soccer in the United States than play college water polo. For example, more than 70 percent of the starters in the 2024 NCAA Division 1 men’s soccer championship game were from countries other than the United States.
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The rapid emergence of women’s flag football is a bigger threat to the future and quality of women’s water polo in the United States than international players. About 500,000 girls played flag football in 2023. This number will continue to increase because flag football will be an Olympic sport in 2028 and is likely to be an NCAA sport by 2028.
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International players have improved the level of play in college water polo. International coaches have improved the level of play in the United States at the age-group and college levels.
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A significant percentage of international athletes, male and female, don’t start for their college water polo teams.
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The best soccer and men’s water polo are not played in the United States. It’s not even close. With a few notable exceptions, the best international players don’t come to the United States to play college water polo. Similarly, with even fewer exceptions, the best international players don’t come to the United States to play college soccer.
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The suggestion by one of our colleagues that Kirk Everist and Marko Pintaric are “lazy” because they recruit international players is misguided. It’s probably more difficult for American college coaches to identify, evaluate, and recruit international players than American players. Not to mention the difficulty of determining whether a particular athlete will fit into the culture of the coach’s team and navigating the more complicated admissions process for international students. As a reasonably knowledgeable fan of American high school water polo, I can list the top 50 water polo players from the Class of 2026 and my list wouldn’t look much different than a list prepared by a top college coach. I couldn’t begin to prepare a similar list of international players.
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In a posting on a related thread, one of our colleagues writes, “Looking like USC is going all foreign in order to win. . . . It’s to the point that any US kids that commit to USC know they will never play. Sad sad.” Never mind that two of USC’s 2024 first-team All-Americans are from the United States (Max Miller and Bernardo Herzer), another American (Carson Kranz) was a 3rd team All-American, and 20 of the 24 players who scored a goal or recorded a save for USC in 2024 are Americans. USC finished second in the 2024 NCAA Division 1 men’s water polo tournament. Marshall, the school that finished second in the 2024 NCAA Division 1 men’s soccer tournament, had 25 international players on its 28-man roster.
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From what I’ve heard, American athletes, not international athletes, have received the largest financial packages provided to water polo players. It should come as no surprise that the financial packages offered to college water polo players pale in comparison to those offered to football and basketball players. For example, the financial package Michigan and its NIL collectives reportedly provided to Bryce Underwood, generally considered to be the best high school football player in the Class of 2025, is at least $10 million more than the largest financial packages provided to college water polo players. That’s what an 8-5 season will do at a school with a strong football tradition and a large, affluent alumni base.
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International athletes make it more likely, not less likely, that schools such as Pacific, Fordham, and Princeton can challenge the “Big Four” schools. Reducing the number of international athletes that play college water polo will not lead to greater parity in the sport.
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The NCAA won’t establish a rule limiting the number of international athletes that can play college water polo, unless it establishes a similar rule for all NCAA sports. I wouldn’t count on that happening anytime soon and I don’t know whether the rule would withstand the inevitable legal challenge. The NCAA’s recent track record in litigation isn’t very good.
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If water polo as we know it ceases to exist in the United States or suffers a big loss in popularity, it won’t be because we have seen an increase in the number of international athletes playing college water polo. It will be because the sport’s governing body, USA Water Polo, is unable or unwilling to adjust to the rapidly changing sports world.
Very much agree with your point on girls flag football being a threat to girls water polo. Was coaching HS girls polo for the last 4 years and once girls flag football became a fall sport we saw a huge reduction in the amount of new players coming out to try water polo. Any female athlete that is successful on land sports is much more likely to try flag football than water polo for a new sport their freshman year in HS, and probably stick with it.
Club water polo is now more important than ever to get youth girls playing early, and loving it early, so that they stick with water polo in HS and hopefully beyond.
Agree on most except:
This isn’t accurate - Foreigners play (start / first off the bench) at a much higher rate than domestics. Only recently (last 10 years) have the foreign numbers blown up to where you have foreigners sitting the bench.
Questionable - The trend is: go to Youth World Champs, get the best kids from there. The other countries National Teams have already filtered all the chaff out.
The suggestion that an elite “country club mentality” is negatively impacting US water polo seems misplaced, inaccurate and unnecessary. Rather than fostering constructive dialogue, such posts/rants, particularly those directed at parents (who likely make up a significant portion of this forum’s membership) for helping guide their children’s educational choices, appear unproductive.
The reality is, water polo has a limited future beyond college, so academics play a huge role in these decisions. Therefore, it’s entirely reasonable for student-athletes and their families to prioritize academic excellence alongside athletic programs when choosing schools.
There is nothing wrong with the LB nor its waterpolo program, there are numerous institutions that offer both stronger academics and enhanced career prospects, might be making them more attractive options for college-bound athletes.
I’m willing to bet, many Newport, CDM, JSerra, other Northern and Southern California elite level waterpolo program athletes choose to attend a diverse range of schools beyond just the top-tier programs you mentioned. This suggests that student-athletes are making thoughtful decisions based on their individual circumstances and goals, rather than following any particular pattern.
The emergence of flag shows parents are hungry for a foot into college. That’s talked about a lot how it’s the future of opening doors for girls. Much like water polo used to be talked about, btw.
Why is it ok for female flag participants to play for a better chance at college and when water polo parents say it—this blog mocks them?
Sctrojane,
No clue how the ranking on upward mobility is relevant for the current discussion.
Sure, Cal State schools have a lot of kids from immigrant and poor families, and, yes, Cal State helps these kids to get education. And yes, Cal State is still very affordable by California standards. But the quality of education, in general, provided by Cal State schools cannot be compared with the one at Big 4 schools. To hit closer to home, please compare strength of alumni networks at USC and say Fresno State.
P.S. And just to be clear. I do not mean that kids who choose to go, say to Long Beach state or Fresno State, because they want to play for Gavin or Natalie are making a mistake. Of course not! I know personally a kid who choose Long Beach engineering and water polo over UC and the kid was quite happy with their choice. There are several absolutely fantastic coaches at Cal State schools. If the kids are happy with their major and trust their coaches - more power to them. They will grow into very successful individuals…
- Water polo is niche, so compare it to other niche sports. Not soccer.
- Every club parent in every sport does this for the dream of assisting their child into college. In my day, water polo became more popular because of the ability to play in college and get into a school you likely wouldn’t without it. That was a selling feature to grow the sport.
Most of us were not all stars but we’re on a team. Outside forces are killing that goal for hundreds of players each year. - Not similar at all, compare numbers of volleyball, crew, gymnastics, etc.
- even espn commentators speak about flag opening doors for women in college. Why can’t water polo parents hope for that as well? Why are we seemingly labeled greedy and delusional on this blog?
- Players in HS do not care. They want to play, or at least be on the team, not watch foreigners take over.
- Not true, at all. It’s actually the opposite.
- This is obviously massively changing for water polo—internationals are prioritizing to play here.
- Assistant coaches are paid to find talent. It’s their job and head coaches need to win. They’ll find the international talent.
- Usc dropping American seniors for internationals, if true, is upsetting.
- Great for him, and my ca tax dollars. So can we prioritize the rest of American players as well?
- I don’t care if X school with 14 foreigners challenges the big four. Its forcing other top 20 schools to get on board.
- Agree. We should help ourselves and not rely on NCAA. How?
- Loved CEO dropping odp system in volleyball in favor of paying college coaches to pick national team players by watching big tournaments. This could help increase the pay of assistant coaches at colleges who are barely surviving. This could also help them keep their jobs—telling AD they’re part of picking national teams. Increase their value. If college coaches have more job security perhaps they can be more willing to “buy American!”
Texas state lawmakers introduce bills to cap number of scholarships for international athletes
The NCAA [estimates] roughly 23,000 international athletes competed in college athletics in 2024 – roughly 4% of all student-athletes. That figure was down from the more than 25,000 who participated in 2023.
Only 4%? They must all be in soccer.
Good for Texas, simple and effective to protect Americans and still utilize the higher level of play internationals can bring.
Interesting the state of Texas can see this as a problem for the future of our kids and are attempting to fix it.
Texas gets it. Too bad the college coaches don’t.
Maybe it’s just me, but a patchwork of state-by-state legislation seems like a bad approach here. An NCAA-wide policy on this might be workable, but compared to other changes in college recruitment of HS talent, I think the foreign players are small potatoes. What’s really limiting recruitment of HS talent is the transfer portal giving college coaches an easier way to recruit known–and older–talent.
At the end of the day, it seems like many factors are stacked against HS seniors from playing in college at the level they may have attained 3,5 or 10 years ago. Nothing seems to have helped those candidates. Coaches and players benefit from athletes starting college later. Now, high schoolers need to determine what is most important to them and make decisions accordingly. I see no reason to chastise kids who choose to go to JC, D3 or lower level D1 programs nor is appropriate to blame those who choose to leave the sport because the life of being an athletic transfer candidate isn’t the college experience they desire.
Here’s one concrete step that NCAA could take that doesn’t require messing with other sports - crack down on athletes playing professional overseas water polo before college polo. I don’t have stats but many of the non-US collegiate polo players bio show 2-4 years playing in professional leagues, which pay for “living expenses”. Since when is that not professional athletics?? Minor league baseball players barely make living expenses and yet lose NCAA eligibility because the check goes to them rather than directly for their rent or meals.
And something colleges and athletic departments can do - reinstate mandatory standardized testing for athletes, especially international athletes whose transcripts are often not comparable to U.S. athletes. The floodgates of non-U.S. didn’t open until the TOEFL and SAT/ACT became optional.
100% Marco.
Until there is women’s flag football with significant numbers of scholarships–they won’t ever be equal to men’s football–this will continue to be a major issue.
Even with additional women’s scholarships very little incentive exists to add a men’s program. Title IX has hurt non-revenue producing men’s sports, sourced via Captain Obvious.
Solutions are equally obvious but unlikely (0%) to happen. If you have a women’s sport you have a men’s option with an equal number of scholarships. But as currently structured any mid-level school with a football team cannot do this (Michigan, ASU, Hawaii, Indiana, SDSU, Fresno St). This also prevents many schools in Texas from growing the sport-- UT, SMU, TCU. Same problem in FL.
In terms of education, it’s what you put into it.
JFran,
It is an absolutely right attitude (you concentrate on what you can control) but it is far from the whole truth.
A good analogy is water polo: you typically need excellent coaches at the age group level for talented kids to improve up to their potential (provided kids are willing to work hard - which is what they can control).
Quality of faculty, quality of research facilities are, in general, significantly higher at the Ivies and the UC levels than at Cal State schools. In part, it is reflected in a much lower Cal State tuition.
P.S. To be fair, it is absolutely not a disaster if a kid decides to go to a Cal State school or a community college. There are many success stories of kids who chose that path.