In the absence of NorCal and SoCal season alignment in CA high school girl’s water polo, the sport misses out on great statewide high school competitions (i.e., boys North vs. South Tournament), and of course it’s the reason why a true CIF State Championship doesn’t exist for both boys and girls.
The lack of alignment is certainly influenced by things like weather, pool availability, and impact on other sports (swimming).
You have now been appointed State CIF Commissioner. How would you align the girl’s season? What part of the school year would you put it in? What are the impacts and how are they addressed?
I really like this question/topic as it is one I have been thinking about for over 20 years now. Personally, I think it makes the most sense to keep the Boys and Girls seasons separated for pool space. The question is do we want to align to what 4 year university and colleges do, which is flop swim from Spring to Winter and GWP from Winter in the South and Fall in the North to Spring?
I feel like that makes the most sense because having swim meets and invites over the winter and Thanksgiving break seems easier to attend and navigate as swim is more individualistic in nature in trying to qualify for CIF. If there’s an additional opportunity to be seen or hit a time, those individuals would be able to compete while also allowing individuals who don’t want to to enjoy their break with the only detriment being to the overall team score in swim. This would still allow many individuals to qualify on their own without relays.
Personally, I had always thought of moving swim to fall and moving boys to spring. Easiest to keep the girls in winter as they seem to be tougher than the boys when it comes to the cold water
However, my logic behind this is now flawed with the rise of clubs. I had originally wanted this to teach newer kids the basics of swimming so polo could be more skill and drill oriented, as opposed to teaching newer kiddos how to swim and their stroke development.
I am always curious to hear other people’s reasoning and logic to align the three aquatic sports and look forward to a great discussion on this thread.
For the state tournament - As commissioner, do I have the budget to charter jets? - The current “State” tournament is a Tuesday / Thursday / Saturday event, so unless you know of a better way for a Sacramento vs San Diego game on a school night …
I suppose you could have a 3-day tournament where the teams all come together for one tournament at a centralized location.
Is this re-organization to enable a State tournament? The better question I think is why even have the State tournament at all? Kids play for CIF then have this also-ran tournament after CIF. We have a club system for committed kids to play other committed kids from out-of-area teams - let HS be HS and let club be club.
Boys in the Spring so College coaches can watch
Girls in the Fall so College coaches can watch
Swim in the winter
Rational is spot on with the proposed seasons based on not overlapping with college seasons and allowing the college coaches to attend HS games and focus on recruiting.
I do believe there is value in having some level of state competition. It gives college coaches another lens to observe prospective players outside of club/JO’s, especially for the programs that tend to recruit out of their backyard out of convenience.
I don’t think college swimmers are being recruited based on their HS swim times, they are probably getting their best times in club and the college coaches can recruit purely based off an individual’s times. Swimmers aren’t sitting on cold benches (often without a parka) during competition, so winter makes the most sense.
Here are my thoughts on aligning the Northern California and Southern California girls’ water polo seasons and the establishment of boys’ and girls’ State water polo tournaments.
There won’t be a boys’ State water polo tournament unless there is a girls’ State tournament because of Title IX considerations.
The California Interscholastic Federation (CIF) State Office doesn’t have the authority to require that the girls’ water polo seasons be aligned.
If one CIF section requested that the NorCal and SoCal girls’ water polo seasons be aligned, the issue would be discussed by, and brought to a vote of, all of the sections.
If the NorCal and SoCal girls’ seasons were aligned, there would be State water polo tournaments.
There is no perfect solution but the scenario most likely to pass would be to move the SoCal girls’ season to the fall. The SoCal girls’ season now starts in late November and ends in late February. The weather is too cold in parts of Northern California to play high school water polo during this time period.
The availability of pools and officials is usually cited as the reason why the SoCal girls’ season can’t be moved to the fall. They make it work in Northern California by having the boys’ and girls’ junior varsity and varsity teams play four games back-to-back on the same day in the same pool. Is there a good reason why the SoCal schools couldn’t do the same thing?
I think it would be great if the girls’ water polo seasons were aligned. If they were, there would be State tournaments for both genders and, as an added bonus, there would be in-season tournaments featuring the best girls’ programs in California. In addition, the Northern and Southern California Regional Tournaments would have more significance because the winners would be invited to participate in the State tournaments. Although it’s true that a Southern Section school would usually win the boys’ and girls’ State tournaments, they wouldn’t win every year. Since 2000, a Northern California or San Diego boys’ team has had the best team in California (and the country) four times: Coronado in 2000 and 2001, Miramonte in 2008, and Sacred Heart in 2021 (a toss-up that year between Sacred Heart and Newport Harbor). Unfortunately, we will never know how the great Monte Vista, Acalanes, and Miramonte girls’ teams would have fared against the top Southern California teams.
We can continue to talk about the desire to have State water polo tournaments but nothing will happen until one CIF section proposes to align the NorCal and SoCal girls’ seasons. How might this happen? Interested schools need to discuss the matter with their leagues and the leagues need to discuss the matter with their CIF sections. All it would take to bring the matter to a State-wide vote is a proposal from one section.
@Jeff one thing that comes to my socal-state-of-mind is coaching in addition to pool space and officiating. From my playing days (~15 years ago) some HS coaches will coach the boys and then girls seasons. If that’s still a non-trivial segment of the available coaches, I’m wondering if that will stretch a coaching staff thin?
Is this a “solved problem” in NorCal by simply having folks manage boys and girls under a single program or do you observe some fragmentation here?
Yes that is the scenario in 75 percent of the schools in our county. Some of our schools share pools or use public pools, so both boys and girls in the same season would be impossible. This would most most likely cause 5 of our schools to cancel both boys and girls water polo. Many of the girls teams don’t get to practice until the Boys teams lose in the playoffs as it is. You guys really want to restructure this whole thing so 100 kids can play a few games at the state level?
Why not have a state tournament after girls season in February? Most of the boys and girls not in season at that level are playing club so they would all be ready to go.
I think the biggest problem for combining boys and girls in the SS in the same season is pool availability for practices more than games. Curious how they do it NorCal. There’s only a handful of schools where the boys coach is also the girls coach.
The recommendation of having a state tournament in February wouldn’t hold because, while the NorCal kids are in club, they aren’t getting the same level of practice as the school teams (3 days a week vs 5 days) and I wouldn’t be surprised if the NorCal clubs are taking it easy in the winter for the very reason why HS aquatics doesn’t happen in the winter up north. If NorCal clubs are in fact practicing in the winter, then why not move girls HS season into the winter as well?
Mentioned in the regional championship thread that veered off into (lack of) state championships talk. In addition to state tournament, moving girls to Fall would mean warmer weather and eliminate the conflict with girls basketball and soccer, making it easier for players to try water polo.
Up here in NorCal, during the Fall season, high school boys and girls share the same pool. At my kids’ high school, one group practices 3:15pm-5:30pm and then the next gets in 5:30pm-7:45pm. Two days a week, the girls are early and the boys are late, and the other two days they alternate. After the high school teams are done practicing, then the club teams (10u, 12u, 14u) get in the pool for their practice usually ending around 9:30pm. Also, the high school boys team practices 2 mornings before school, and the girls team practices 2 other mornings.
I am going to give my two cents. take it for what it is worth (nothing), but it is my opinion.
Boys move to winter. The rational is this: Girls in NoCal will not make the move due to the weather (even though they play club and swim, parents of the non-club athletes will balk “too cold…why should we be punished…Why do we have to pull tarps and the boys don’t?”…etc…)
Girls moving to fall across the United States. This has to be a NHSA mandate. By having the girls across the nation move to a fall it will allow teams to implement a Freshman, Junior Varsity and Varsity Season.
Some point that has been brought up discussing this situation:
The lack of HS referees. If you force the girls and boys to be in the same season, and try to have a Freshman, JV and Varsity program, Refs will have to ref 6 games instead of the current 4. By splitting the season in NorCal, the refs will only have to ref 3 games (Freshman, JV, Varsity) at a pool site instead of the current 4 (two JV, 2 Varsity as situation dictates).
It will also allow refs who referee a certain style (girls get calls they hold the whistle for boys) to be separated from having the thought process of watching boys and then a girl’s water polo water polo match (or vice-versa). Referees will only have to focus on girls for three months, then boys for three months. Some HS Referees do not ref USA Water Polo and shut down after the season ends (which is a shame, but understandable). Because in my opinion, they are ‘set in their ways’ and will not change to the style of play but force the style of play they are comfortable with (how many times have you thought “ummmm, that is a five meter at a boy’s game, and you don’t call it at the girls?”).
Pool Space. This will never go away. In Central Section (specifically Clovis Schools), the coaches will split practice times. For example Girls will practice from End of school day to 5:30, boys from 5:30 to 7:30. In Southern Section, I have seen your all pools. With HS Water Polo and local club swimming, this gets convoluted. I have spoken with parents who have thought this out and kids may be in the water until 10:30 at night. This is a no bueno situation.
Schools can lower the cost of the program. Some schools are able to have a Director of Sport for both programs run by one person instead of two. Yes, you would still be the HC of the Boys program, but you are not the director of sport for Water Polo, that is the HC of the Girls Program. Some schools will be able to cut dead weight and have a Boys and Girls coach that is the same for both programs. Yes, I understand the “I don’t want my son to be coached by a girl”. However, this is HS Water Polo, not club.
Fundraising for two separate seasons will be easier. HS Teams have to fundraise. If the boys and girls are out trying to scratch the same person for $500.00, it is better to split the season and focus on fundraising for two separate seasons and pull $1,000.00 from the donor over the 6 months.
Fan interaction. How many times have you been to a Girls game and the fans have not shown up for the game as the Boys play in two hours? By splitting the season, you will have dedicated group of students (and hopefully parents) who are knowledgeable of the game, and WANT to cheer on the student body in the water.
Coaches from Universities can actually attend a game. Yes, I understand USC, Cal, UCLA and Stanford won’t show up to most HS games throughout the nation, but imagine your Timmy or Tammy Buckteeth, a 2MD and 3 college coaches show up to watch you play? That is a moral booster for kids.
I know that this is going to cause some people to get upset, and want to argue my points. You are granted and please do. However, I have been thinking of this issue for the last four years and this is my opinion on how to change the HS Season to a more positive experience.
I really like that this discussion is gaining traction. Here is a solution that does not require any changes to the current seasons.
The tournament is played at one rotating location (NoCal, SoCal Santa Barbara) and it’s done in two days–or takes only 1 day if it’s done like Football, only the regional champ advances.
Boys play on the Fri/Sat of Thanksgiving weekend, girls play the weekend after SoCal sections finish. NoCal girls keep training with their club teams then come back together 3 months later.
This would also let the NoCal girls have an excuse when they lose every year (j/k my NoCal friends)! I’d love to see top 4 from each region advance and have the games played out 1st to 8th.
Great point, but the problem is that it won’t be a State Sponsored Championship. The reason why is CIF will not condone a sport out of season to play for a mythical championship. You have the issue of CIF Rule that state a child may not participate in a sport twice in one year (imagine, your child plays in CIF-CCS, then as parents you move the family to Florida…season is spring, NFHS rules disallows that child from participating in another season of the same sport).
It was pointed out that Girls in SS are in club season during the fall. A mythical championship could be created at the end of the Fall HS Season against a Girls HS Team from SoCal as they are in Club shape. However, this would be similar to the Division 3 Championship being run by USA Water Polo. How would this work? Great question, something to brainstorm on (how to select the teams from CIF-SS, how to divide the bids for NoCal, how big is it going to be? Sites to be held at (O.C., Santa Barbara, Clovis, NoCal?). Or we could flip it and ask the Girls from NoCal to continue to train and prepare for the mythical championship when CIF-SS, -LA and -SD finish their season. Now the next dilemma is club coaches losing their s*** “What the hell, this is club season not HS, your finished playing school ball”.
Some more room for ideas I am sure. Maybe a thread to discuss. It will not be the first (or last time) that parents have put the proverbial manicured hoof on schools and clubs to do something for the kids. Having said that, how would it be financed (low-income school kids do not have the ability to fund multiple trips, schools will not foot the bill)? Coordination between USA Water Polo, HS Teams masquerading as Club Teams, level of membership to participate. Would it be a tournament format? Round Robin First-Round?
Then you have the next issue of splitting slots. Most NoCal Sections have only 3 divisions (Division 1,2 and 3). CIF-SS has 6 divisions and the Open, CIF-LA has Division 1 and the Open Division and finally CIF-SD has 3 divisions and the Open.
These are not the most all encompassing thoughts, but something that has been discussed over the years with other like-minded parents.
This is an interesting discussion but there won’t be a California State water polo championship for either gender (or in-season tournaments featuring all of the top girls’ programs) until the girls’ seasons are aligned. To make that happen, we need a proposal from at least one CIF section and support from most of the other sections.
Move the SoCal girls to the fall with the boys to align with NorCal. The pool space/practice problem is solved by one group practicing before school and one practicing after school. As tough as a 5:30 a.m. practice can be, it also allows students to spend more time on their studies, other extracurriculars, or supplemental training efforts like weight lifting in the afternoon with their core water polo practice out of the way.
I disagree with posters advocating for the spring for either or both genders due to the conflict it would cause with swim team and also because March through July are the critical window for club play, with higher-level club teams competing in major tournaments and leagues. Many kids who play at high level clubs do not enjoy the same level of play at their high schools so it makes more sense to knock out both high school seasons before Thanksgiving and then let kids transition to club from there.
A state championship would be great for the sport as it is for basketball and other major sports and would give the athletes more motivation for a final push after their section championships have been played.
Enjoying the discussion here…@Jeff wrote above that “the scenario most likely to pass would be to move the SoCal girls’ season to the fall” and others that seem knowledgeable here have agreed. @Jeff also wrote that “Interested schools need to discuss the matter with their leagues and the leagues need to discuss the matter with their CIF sections. All it would take to bring the matter to a State-wide vote is a proposal from one section.”
Has anyone with kids at SoCal High schools actually discussed these ideas with their schools/coaches? if so, what has the feedback been? if not, maybe time to have that discussion.
Swimming should be a fall sport. Boys polo a winter sport and Girls polo a spring sport.
Why? Well, a lot of walk-on athletes do not want to start swimming in January / February, when it is cold. Especially not at 6am, because the in-season water polo kids need afternoon pool time.
Second, it is easier to recruit current swimmers right after summer break and then later entice them to continue playing for their school if, let’s say, boys water polo is in the winter and girls water polo is in the spring. A lot of these single sport athletes could be converted. You would simply get more athletes in your program. Also imagine how much better life for polo coaches would be if you don’t have any players who you have to teach how to swim, because they just learned that at swim team (in the open group).
Third you have to consider club swim and club polo:
Fall swimming in club is for the hard-core swimmers. Those swimmers can still go to their winter nationals in late December, after high school swim ends in early November. They can go to their club, get some work done and participate in winter nationals and hopefully get some sort of mini-taper. They would get this mini-taper anyways since most clubs don’t really care for winter nationals. The main goal in club swim is summer nationals. Lots of club swim coaches clash with high school coaches who, understandably, want the swimmers at their practices, while the club coaches want their swimmers to do well in June/July and high school season might interrupt their training plan. By moving HS Swim to the fall, you actually align the seasons better for both club and high school.
water polo season would be broken up into three parts:
Fall - League play. Think futures, calcup, etc.
HS Season (Boys winter, girls spring). Most highly successful girls club teams are very close to their high school groups. If HS ends in mid april, there are 3 months until JOs. They can continue where they leave off, maybe add/lose one or two players, but realistically develop better than they do now where most girls take fall season not serious at all. Boys club teams would be able to start up a little earlier, but most boys take a longer break after season then girls do and their returns to club would align pretty well.
